jdigital: Deep Crow

Jonathan Drain (

jdigital) wrote,
@ 2008-03-21 17:44:00

Entry tags:

d&d, deep crow

Deep Crow
My blog's server is currently struggling with a direct link by Penny Arcade, so I've temporarily redirected some of you here. Click here to try anyway or subscribe to the LJ feed at jd20.

Here are the D20 stats on the Deep Crow in the meantime. (Edit: I've also got stats on the stalagmen.)

The following game statistics are inspired by this Penny Arcade strip.

DEEP CROW
This vile feathered creature appears at first a massive, corrupted crow. A disgusting multitude of eyes are mounted above a powerful antlike beak, and four lethal talons ready themselves before a heavy, swinging tail.

This terrifying creature is responsible for night raids on farms that are often mistakenly blamed on dragons or common cattle thieves. Swooping down out of the darkness on massive wings, the powerful bird simply lifts off with livestock in its talons. Its roost is frequently littered with the smashed skeletons of former meals, with recognisable skulls evidencing that the terrible creature has no compunctions about eating human flesh. Growing ever larger with age, truly ancient deep crows are fearsome creatures indeed.

Deep Crow—CR12

Always NE Huge magical beast
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60ft., low-light vision; Listen +10, Spot +11

AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+8 natural armor, +4 Dex, -2 size); damage reduction 10/magic
hp 102 (12HD)
Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 17
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +5

Spd fly 60ft. (average)
Melee 4 talons +17 (1d8+6) and bite +15 (2d8+3) and tail slap +15 (2d6+3)
Base Atk +12; Grp +12
Atk Options Snatch, flyby attack

Abilities Str 22, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 9
Feats Alertness, Snatch, Multiattack, Hover, Flyby attack

Environment any mountain or underground
Organization solitary
Treasure none
Advancement 13-24 HD (Huge), 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)

Snatch The deep crow can choose to start a grapple when it hits with its talon or bite attack. If the deep crow gets a hold on a creature of Small size or less, it squeezes each around for automatic talon damage. The deep crow can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the deep crow flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Flyby attack When flying, the deep crow can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The deep crow cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Disclaimer: I haven’t playtested this yet. Let me know if you think the challenge rating is off.

(Post a new comment)

	davethebrave 2008-03-21 05:58 pm UTC (link)
	hahaha, as soon as I saw the site was down I went to the LJ. Just so you know, after reading this, I fully expect to have a 36 HD Deep Crow make an appearance should my party venture into Khyber in my Eberron campaign. (Reply to this)

sxecrow
2008-03-21 06:18 pm UTC (link)

6 attacks a round and CR 12? Uhh.. that thing will SLAUGHTER at least 1 person in a level 12 party. You're talking a damage potential of 45-90 a round on characters who if they are all 12th level Barbarians will have a maximum of 144 hit points. Two rounds = dead character at the worst. It's low AC and semi-low hp is it's only saving grace.

Though.. I could be reading the 4 claw attacks wrong. Is it 4 SEPARATE attacks or is that one attack called "4 claws"?

Also I could be wrong, but if it is getting attacks with all 4 claws I believe it would require Multi-Attack?

Otherwise awesome. I'd maybe bump it's CR to like 14-15, but maybe I'm just missing something.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	protomech 2008-03-21 07:29 pm UTC (link)
	How many 12th level barbarians do you know with a 10 con? A decent 12th level barbarian will have average 12 + 11 * 6.5 + 12 * 5 = 144 hp while raging, max could be much higher. Grapple for the deepcrow should be +26. Compared to the d20srd roc (CR9), yrthak (CR9) or nightwing (CR14), CR12 seems about right. (Reply to this)(Parent)

jdigital
2008-03-21 07:39 pm UTC (link)

It does have Multiattack.

Average damage output on a full attack, assuming he's hovering, is 64 if all attacks hit. A level 12 fighter might have AC 26 and 100 hit points, meaning he'll block fully half the attacks and take 32 damage per round. Given the creatures' low AC, the same fighter can be calculated to deal perhaps forty-five or fifty damage a round in return.

Bear in mind that CR12 assumes our level 12 fighter will have a cleric on hand to cast heal, a wizard lobbing off attack spells, and a rogue who can get off at least one sneaky shot for 7d6 damage.

Considering the maths, I think it's reasonably balanced.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	gailan572 2008-03-21 07:02 pm UTC (link)
	Shouldn't the AC penalty for size apply to it flat-footed AC too? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jdigital 2008-03-21 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	You are correct; flat-footed AC should be 16. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	spunedagr 2008-03-21 07:24 pm UTC (link)
	Even a dragon can't use all four of it's claws when attacking. I'd take it down to two claw attacks. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	entropicflux 2008-03-23 03:59 pm UTC (link)
	dragons are basically famous for being lame, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	perich 2008-03-21 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	I'd say maybe CR 11. HP's a mite low for a CR 12 creature, though the DR, SR and various resistances make up for it. I'd even consider CR 10, but I like to err on the side of caution. (Reply to this)

eranus
2008-03-21 07:54 pm UTC (link)

Personally, I see a few flaws in this build. First of all, PCs start to hit high amounts of damage at around 12th level and it has a relatively low AC, so I would make the HP 12d12+72(140). As it lives in underground environments, I would think it would have darkvision around 120ft instead of 60ft, as well, I think that it's listen check should be more like +16 as it lives in darkness. Because it's a magical beast, it will probably have an Intelligence score of 10+ instead of 7; also, all of its saves should be bumped up, especially the will. Now, seeing as it's a huge bird with talons, the grapple is likely to be at least twice the base attack, more like +26, than +12. Finally, the talon attack should get all of its strength added to it, making it +18 to hit (and in the case that it's a single attack called four talons, it should do more damage... say a d12+6). Overall, it's a great build and I'm making these suggestions from my experience in a party of 4+ people that love to find ways to max out damage so you should just try to adjust it as you see fit. I'll definitely be using it in a campaign that I have coming up which should be fun.

(Reply to this)

ragnarok_now
2008-03-21 08:13 pm UTC (link)

I'm one of the multitude who will likely come, having followed the dreaded link.

My input:
Loose two of the claws (as above, unless it has six legs). The CR is already probably a bit low, so other abilities could be added.
I'd increase the damage in exchange, maybe increase it's accuracy (i.e. strength). I think it aught to have a higher grapple anyway (is size included in that?).
Regeneration is always a nice feature, if you need to buff it up a bit. Also consider adding immunities/resistances (already has some).

Last thing: the flinging damage probably should only occur if the target hits something . Levitating or flying creatures would probably avoid such.

(Reply to this)

	mightyrikimaru 2008-03-21 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	I would like to see GURPS stats for Deep Crows. (Reply to this)

Deep Crows

cthulhuchild
2008-03-21 08:18 pm UTC (link)

Challenge rating is a bit high: since the crow has no ranged attacks, our melee's just stood close together and readied attacks. Meanwhile the mage started lobbing crap spells. Crow had to come down or be nuked out of the air, and when it came down it got nearly 1 shot from the 4 melees... and we didn't even have a bow wielding character.

Dragons (or god, mephits) are comparatively more dangerous because they can stay out of range WHILE doing damage. Flying monsters with ranged abilities get higher CR, but without ranged attacks, it might as well not be airborn. Although the ability to practically auto-kill halflings is kinda fun.

The only other complaint is that with a name like deep crow, I imagine something much more sinister than what is basically just a big bird with a special attack. In a world populated with dragons, rampaging orc warlords and trolls, for something to have a reputation of PARTICULARLY terrifying (such as the deep crow seems to), it needs something special.

And on that point, I am reminded of Steven Erikson's Malazan book of the Fallen, where the flying city of Moon's Spawn is host to a flock of Great Ravens, born of the flesh of the crippled god when he was torn from his world. They are basically just giant ravens, except they devour magic. Not only are they literally immune to magical spells and attacks, they are empowered by them.

So as a thought, make then have an ability where any spell cast at a deep crow gives them temporary HP equal to double the spell level (18 HP for a level 9, 16 hp for a level 8, etc). Similarly, magic from wonderous items (including rod of wonder, soverien glue, etc etc etc) does not affect them. Moreover, if struck by a magic weapon, they gain the market modifier x2 temporary hitpoints, and the weapon loses all magical properties for 1 hour (so if hit with a +3 flaming sword, they gain 4x2=8 temp hitpoints, and the flaming sword is now a masterwork for the next hour. The crow still takes bonus damage/fire damgage). Finally, the crow ignores all magical bonuses to armor, (Deflection, enhancement bonus on armor or shield, and natural armor granted by magical items or spells).

With that all done, I would remove the damage resistance/magical, though a very small damage resistance (say, 5/silver) might be appropriate. And bump it's CR a bit.

So now instead of a generic flying crow, you've got an otherworldy terror that DEVOURS THE PARTIES MAGIC, making for an encounter where they have to rely on their un-enhanced selves (mages can still cast magic, just not at the crow. bullstrength=very good idea. Levitation/fly/etc all are useful for the combat. And you can throw rocks at it with magic, or summon monsters.. you just can't fireball it to death). What makes the encounter really fun is the fact that even after winning, the party has a challenge in dealing with future encounters where their magic weapons don't work.

With this kind of ability, you can imagine why deep crows have such a fearsome reputation. Since they eat magic, you get a wonderful double jeperody where a town that has a deep crow problem wants heroes to show up and kill the thing, except heroes carry alot of magic, so heroes can actually make things worse by attracting even more crows.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Deep Crows
(Anonymous)
2008-03-21 08:32 pm UTC (link)

Sorry, re: damage/health tweaking. The thing to remember is that hypothetically a party of equal CR should be able to take what, 7 encounters before resting? IE each encounter of equal level requires 1/7th of parties spells/hp/daily use abilities/healing potions/whatever.

High damage low AC monsters are a problem, because they have the tendancy to 1-shot a party member (causing a big problem), then get 1 shot themselves. yes, 12th level barbarian can survive this thing no problem, but a 12th level mage is likely going to get sodomized. Random luck starts making encounters very swingy.

My solution is usually as follows: I keep AC relatively low (remember 1 ac=5% mitigation for melee, so hypothetically int he long run 1 ac=5% more health, if the thing is immune to magic), but I keep it's HP high, so the encounter can't be over in 1 round with a crit or two from the barbarian. Keep in mind I have had a level 4 character do 116 damage in a round with a double crit... damage output from melee characters gets OBSCENE if your players are even a little into minmaxing. You can solve that problem by making mobs immune to crit or sneak attack, but that's not a nice solution because it frusterates players. Better to give it more HP to ensure the encounter has a decent length, and still let them get them use their characters abilities to the fullest.

Similarly, for the monster, I usually use two attack modes. One is a single (or pair) of high hit moderate damage abilities (so a bite with +18/+13 to hit that does 1d12+12 damage). Then give them an alternative attack mode (wing buffet, whirlwind, claw, tailswipe) that is low damage/low hit across multiple targets. This gives you the best of both worlds: most damage focus'd on one character who can be healed, a sense of threat to the full party (because everyone takes a bit of damage from other attacks), and on the off chance that the monster attacks a squishy like a sorceer, the damage will HURT, but is unlikely to 1 shot the poor guy, allowing you to deal with things.

Remember also that the more HP, especially with a flying monster, the encounter will last more than one round. 1d12+12 damage, if both hit, is only 36 damage per round. But if the fight lasts 5 or 6 rounds, you're now looking at an amount that MUST be healed or otherwise mitigated, IE a more interesting encounter, but not one that will end with a party member dead because the monster got a lucky crit.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Deep Crows rebel7284 2008-03-21 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	actually it's 4 encounters before resting. the creature seems a bit weak indeed. DR/magic at level 12? IE: no DR to speak of. SR does help a bit against mages auto-winning though and flyby attack and snatch allow for some interesting options. I say make it CR10 or maybe 11. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Deep Crows
(Anonymous)
2008-03-21 08:50 pm UTC (link)

The encounter system in D20 is that a party must be able to survive 4 encounters in one day without resting. Four.

IMO, this monster's CR is too high. It can't attack from afar (as others mentioned), although it's a demon in melee. This is balanced by the low AC and HP, but it still needs an HP boost. Also, its SR is too low (25% for 12th level character).

It's touch AC is very low, and if hit by Disintegrate, it has a 30% chance (for a wizard with 18 INT) of losing 80% of its HP on average damage (24d6 = 84) by failing its Fortitude Save. With its low Will Save, it has a greater than 50% chance of dying on a Save-Or-Die spell of good level.

So, although the monster is a demon in melee, it will likely never make it to melee. I'd say CR 10.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Deep Crows (Anonymous) 2008-03-21 09:12 pm UTC (link)
	Make it spell-warped. Problem solved. =) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Deep Crows lord_mortanius 2008-03-21 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	This is a good idea I think. Also, it should have detect magic as an innate ability, and one of it's favoured tactics should be to go for the character with the highest magical item rating, and since it would then disable most of those items just by attacking and receiving attacks from them, that really would be nasty. Making munchkins cry is also a good thing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Deep Crows juxtapose_42 2008-03-21 09:05 pm UTC (link)
	The guy explaining how his team would take down one at range was right, I think. In order to make Deep Crows a threat to a well-oiled party, I think they need to attack in flocks. Now that is a terrifying thought. One giant bird may be easily handled by a competent party. A dozen will ruin your junk up. - Jux (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Deep Crows

cthulhuchild
2008-03-21 09:29 pm UTC (link)

kk, 4. At level 12, this crow=3 fireballs.

And yes, if you made the encounter in such a way so that the crow got into melee, it would ruin shit. And probably kill someone randomly: witness, my campaigns almost never feature groups of enemy rogues. Why?

'Guys make listen checks'

'I got a 32'

'not enough, these guys are good. Ok, Amuniseth? What's your armor'

'Uh, with mage armor? 22'

'Cool. Ok, that's 3 hits, 8d6+3 damage per hit with backstab and a flaming rapier, uh yeah, you're dead'

'...'

'oh, and they all chug an invis potion each, vanishing into the darkness from whence they came'

That's not a fun encounter. Same problem wiht a flock of deep crows: the party will either lose someone due to massive damage, or get lucky enough to survive unscathed, but strategy will have much less to do with it than whethor the crows gang up on one person.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Deep Crows entropicflux 2008-03-23 04:06 pm UTC (link)
	if they brought an attack of deep crows(or rogues, or mummies, or whatever)upon themselves, then they should be prepared for the consequences. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Deep Crows
(Anonymous)
2008-03-24 12:48 am UTC (link)

If you are in a completely sandbox world where you do nothing but respond to the adventurers actions, this might true.

However the OVERWHELMING majority of DMs run either plot arcs (which are partially predetermined), or at the very least plan out encounters for a session (which are likely to occur, thus the party didn't bring it ont hemselves, you planned the distinct possibility of you bringing it on them).

Even in the extreme case where they piss off a local thieves guild and thus are getting ganked by rogues, which is a reasonable cause-effect, designing an encounter that rapes a party member is bad design. Even if they 'brought it on themselves', you can ALWAYS find a way to modify an encounter to have either a way out, or at least mitigate the situation. IE if they break into an ancient crypt, there is a good chance they will run into some dangerous undead. You do not HAVE to make them face a demilich. There are many encounters appropriate to their (admittedly foolish) actions, but if you choose one you know will get them killed, you can't then say 'oh, you brought it on yourselves'. Yes, I'm sure many adventurers die because they stumble into a liches secret layer, but it's not good D&D to have that be YOUR party. Give them some ghouls and call it a day.

Same applies to this: a murder of deep crows is overkill and will randomly kill someone, or will be a trivial encounter, but almost never anything in between. Thus this one needs tuning.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Deep Crows

entropicflux
2008-03-24 02:29 am UTC (link)

i guess it comes down to what kind of game you wanna run: one where the players are automatically heroes because they lead a blessed existence where their actions only have favourable consequences, or one where the players must MAKE their characters into the suave dungeoneers that they heard about from travelling bards or whateverthehell. if the players decide to piss off a monolithic organization powerful enough to evade destruction by the regional authorities, an organization that largely makes it's money through high-profile contract killings... pretending that you are a character who has magic and fights fantastic creatures is one thing. pretending that the d&d world is only dangerous if you aren't a player character...?

my opinion: d&d has spells that raise characters from the dead for a reason.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Deep Crows
(Anonymous)
2008-03-24 10:27 am UTC (link)

I second this.

The tendency to hero-ify campaigns to make them "more enjoyable" for players is incredibly common and is led largely by computer games.

For something of an analogy, during the World Wars a pilot who had 5 confirmed career kills was considered an Ace. Think of the last time you played a combat flight sim - you probably shot down at least twice that on a single mission. Play any of the Medal of Honor or Call of Duty games and you'll kill dozens of Nazis for every time you die. In any generic CRPG you'll kill hundreds of goblins just to grind to level 5. The game experience is MASSIVELY distorted to favor the player, and this tends to carry through to expectations for pen 'n' paper RPGs.

What you end up with is campaigns where:
- High level NPCs are tied to desk jobs and require lvl 1 characters to go deal with an invasion to their kingdom.
- Monster populations apparently breed as fast as Aliens (tm).
- Peasant villages are mysteriously immune to the CR10 encounters on the roads connecting them.
- Sheriffs don't investigate profligate murders in their cities as long as they're committed by adventurers.
- An Evil Criminal Mastermind's (tm) idea of "getting back" at adventurers is sending an equal or (more typically) slightly-less powerful group of thugs to beat them down instead of squashing said adventurers like bugs.
- Evil Criminal Masterminds will bide their time to strike back... usually when the adventurers are most prepared.
- The majority of encounters will give the party at least several rounds of advance notice so they can prepare and pepper their attackers with long-range fire before melee commences.
- "Meta" information regarding creature-type immunities and weaknesses will be known by characters fresh off the farm.
- Not only is every monster fanatically bloodthirsty and willing to fight to the death, but they also have a high pain tolerance and will continue to fight enthusiastically until they suddenly drop dead at 0 hit points.
- And most importantly, nothing of any interest will happen in the world unless the adventurers are around to witness it.

Personally I hate DMs who wrangle their story ideas to fit player actions - player choices can and should have consequences. If nothing the player does has any major effect because villains are Dr Evil-level stupid and the DM is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to preserve their concept then it's not a game any more, it's amateur improv theatre.

Getting back to Deep Crows, simple Darwinian theory suggests that the species should tend to ambush to take advantage of their melee skills rather than fly overhead until they're noticed before attacking. If a lone Crow attacks your well-armed party who has time to not only recognize that they're about to be attacked, but also what they're being attacked by and prepare for it, then the species deserves to be extinct.

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	Re: Deep Crows entropicflux 2008-03-25 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	woo! anonymous validation! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-21 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	Congrats, if you haven't noticed, you got Pvp linked. Be grateful you're on LJ and thus don't pay your own bandwidth costs. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Deep Crows jdigital 2008-03-21 09:52 pm UTC (link)
	I do host my own blog, but it was struggling under the weight of a Penny Arcade link so I mirrored the original article here at Livejournal. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	deep crows... tlaubach 2008-03-21 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	for more on the "history" of the deep crow.. read here: http://elothtes.pbwiki.com/Deep+Crows (Reply to this)

	lord_mortanius 2008-03-21 09:44 pm UTC (link)
	You sir, are to be commended for starting the ball rolling with this creation. Thank you. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jdigital 2008-03-21 09:50 pm UTC (link)
	The ball was like that when I got here. Honestly, officer. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-03-21 09:55 pm UTC (link)

I disagree with sxecrow, I think the CR is too high, it's claws only have a +17 to hit and are the main attacks, a 10th level character in a normal campaign should have an AC between 24-28, more if you're smart and have a spellcaster that prepares before going into a potential battle situation. It's AC is low and a decent party of 5 10th level characters should have no problem with it or a smart party of 8th level characters, if you're smart you don't put yourself in a position to give it a full attack to begin with unless you have the AC and HP to back it up. 144HP is not the max for a barbarian of 12th, it's only max for his actual D12 hit die, put in a 16 CON and then raged to a 24 (if straight Brb) and that gives him another 82HP and this is not even taking into acount his DR, one Barbarian and one Cleric at 12th lvl can take this down easily, I say give it a CR of 9-10 and if you have trouble with it at 10th start playing smart and learn some tactics.

(Reply to this)

	rossmills 2008-03-21 11:08 pm UTC (link)
	You might want to hit up This thread on the PA forums. ^_^ (Reply to this)

	awesome kamicosmos 2008-03-22 01:49 am UTC (link)
	I am so throwing this at my group in a couple days. They're all PA fans, so I can't wait to describe this creature in a big dark cavern, and then see the horror on their faces when they realize they face A Deep Crow! Muhahaha.... (Reply to this)

	teh_tog 2008-03-22 09:40 pm UTC (link)
	(Reply to this)

camlost
2008-03-23 04:31 am UTC (link)

You can't survive in the CR 12 Jungle with a will save[1] like that, and SR17 is practically a joke. And it's an animal, it's not hard to guess what its low save is.

Any mage worth his salt will nail it with a glitterdust or hold monster or something and it'll go down really fast.

If it does land, 100HP will go *really* fast. This basically means that its only tactic is to grab a party member and drop them off a cliff every other round or so, which it does well. It's a closet troll that can fly, which doesn't make a good monster, IMO. With ideal terrain, and a way to get out of line of sight[2], it might have a chance at a CR12 Party (4 CR 8 adventurers)

To bring this up to snuff, you'll need
1) +10 to the SR or a big boost to the saves.
2) ~twice the HP.
3) 10 more points of AC (seriously, a 20 AC is basically autohit for a fighter-type at level 12, shall I run the numbers? 12BAB, +2 magic sword, +4str, minimum roll of 2, that wasn't even a stretch)
4) Some sort of ranged attack (a swarm summon of some kind might be flavorful)

[1] Maybe if you're immune to a big batch of spells
[2] Readied actions aren't so hot most of the time

(Reply to this)

mikehardez
2008-03-23 10:16 am UTC (link)

Having 4 talons in an attack routine seems highly questionable (anatomically speaking it seems like it would difficult for a giant bird to attack a single person with all four of its talons and bite/tail; I'm guessing this is why dragons and anatomically similar monsters all have 2 claw/talon attacks only in their full attack routines); I would either make it like the dragon attack routine (replace 2 of the talons with 2 wing attacks) or just remove 2 talon attacks with no substitute.

Without playtesting but comparing it to other CR 12 creatures, the deep crow seems a bit underpowered. For example Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (MM p. 288) has 300 HP, 26 AC, a full attack routine of 2 claws +34 (2d8+12 ea) and sting +29 (2d8+6 plus DC 33 1d10 Con damage poison). Sure it's dumb (no int score), can't fly, and has no ranged attack, but it's hardly a pushover. I'd recommend either lowering the challenge rating of the deep crow or giving it more HP and some sort of ranged attack (spits acid or something?) to bring it up to par with other CR 12 creatures.

But I think the overall goal should be make something that won't roll over to one round of melee attacks but also isn't going to one-shot people with only moderate HP.

(Reply to this)

	deviancy 2008-03-23 10:27 am UTC (link)
	This is going against my party tonight. Should be fun. Dealing with a CR 16-17 bad guy with about 3-5 Deep Crows. Or Deep Murder as i liken to call them. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	intentionally__ 2008-03-23 10:14 pm UTC (link)
	I see what you did there. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	madd_tom_kit 2008-03-23 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	whats the HP on this thing? I seem to be missing it (Reply to this)(Thread)

	entropicflux 2008-03-23 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	102 (Reply to this)(Parent)

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